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pendaWe're discussing INS and undocumented aliens in Employment law right now. I'll be honest, the INS thing infuriates me. You have all these jackasses screaming to lock down the borders and keep aliens out. They aren't seeing the big picture. This country depends on immigrants. Without them a large sector of our society would disappear and the US would crumble. Not to mention that US society was founded by immigrants. And, of course, there is the primary issue that nations are largely meaningless. If you're born a few miles south of the US border, what makes you deserve a life of poverty instead of the life of affluence that comes with being born a few miles to the north?
People who oppose openning the borders won't come out and admit it, but they think they're better than foreigners. They think that being part of the only remaining superpower is their birthright. It is all part of that "entitlement" sickness that infects America. You don't deserve anything based on your birth. Hell, the guy who risks his life (dealing with insane "minutemen" shooting at him, crawling over barbed wire, and running from the dogs and cops chasing him) all to get into this country and give his family a better chance at life deserves a hell of a lot more than you. What have you done? Seriously, what? Let me guess, you squeezed out of your mom in a politically sacred piece of land and received the stamp of "american." Big deal.
And the attitude of manifest destiny fits right in with the ruling classes objectives. They need undocumented workers. They need 3rd world nations to produce their sweatshop goods (so they can afford to keep their borders closed and keep the wealth of the rest of the world trapped in the US), and they need undocumented workers to provide cheap agricultural and manual labor pools. They WANT them here. However, they don't want them to have any power because then they might ascend the social strata and threaten their dynasties. Or even worse they might look to themselves and realize, much like the muslims in the French ghettos have come to realize, that they have real power and can change things.
So what do they do? They keep them illegal. They keep them living in constant fear of losing everything to the Storm Soldier-esque INS forces. They keep them disenfranchized and living in ghettos, many never learning english or learning to read. They keep them from being part of American society in any way other than as work-horses. Then they engage in a social war and keep the rest of US society hating them, to keep people from feeling any sympathy for them or from helping them. They put forth this subconscious viewpoint that they're less than human, and subtly enforce and encourage racism. They tell the working class that it isn't the ruling class that keeps american families struggling to put food on the table, they tell them that it is the fault of those damn illegal aliens taking their jobs (all while they hire them cheaply and also outsource their production facilities).
It's an illusion that most people seem to buy into. But the reality is that you aren't entitled to a damn thing, nations are meaningless since we're all human, and by believing their smoke-screen you're enabling the rich to keep doing exactly what they've been doing for centuries: Exploiting everything and everyone.
Besides, the borders dont' stop ANYONE. If you want in, you can get in. You know they don't work. Cops know they don't work. Politicians know they don't work. Why not open the borders and invite these people to become part of the system? The only reason is for fear of giving people the power to change things and shake the system up.
People who oppose openning the borders won't come out and admit it, but they think they're better than foreigners. They think that being part of the only remaining superpower is their birthright. It is all part of that "entitlement" sickness that infects America. You don't deserve anything based on your birth. Hell, the guy who risks his life (dealing with insane "minutemen" shooting at him, crawling over barbed wire, and running from the dogs and cops chasing him) all to get into this country and give his family a better chance at life deserves a hell of a lot more than you. What have you done? Seriously, what? Let me guess, you squeezed out of your mom in a politically sacred piece of land and received the stamp of "american." Big deal.
And the attitude of manifest destiny fits right in with the ruling classes objectives. They need undocumented workers. They need 3rd world nations to produce their sweatshop goods (so they can afford to keep their borders closed and keep the wealth of the rest of the world trapped in the US), and they need undocumented workers to provide cheap agricultural and manual labor pools. They WANT them here. However, they don't want them to have any power because then they might ascend the social strata and threaten their dynasties. Or even worse they might look to themselves and realize, much like the muslims in the French ghettos have come to realize, that they have real power and can change things.
So what do they do? They keep them illegal. They keep them living in constant fear of losing everything to the Storm Soldier-esque INS forces. They keep them disenfranchized and living in ghettos, many never learning english or learning to read. They keep them from being part of American society in any way other than as work-horses. Then they engage in a social war and keep the rest of US society hating them, to keep people from feeling any sympathy for them or from helping them. They put forth this subconscious viewpoint that they're less than human, and subtly enforce and encourage racism. They tell the working class that it isn't the ruling class that keeps american families struggling to put food on the table, they tell them that it is the fault of those damn illegal aliens taking their jobs (all while they hire them cheaply and also outsource their production facilities).
It's an illusion that most people seem to buy into. But the reality is that you aren't entitled to a damn thing, nations are meaningless since we're all human, and by believing their smoke-screen you're enabling the rich to keep doing exactly what they've been doing for centuries: Exploiting everything and everyone.
Besides, the borders dont' stop ANYONE. If you want in, you can get in. You know they don't work. Cops know they don't work. Politicians know they don't work. Why not open the borders and invite these people to become part of the system? The only reason is for fear of giving people the power to change things and shake the system up.
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no subject
Date: 2005-11-09 10:29 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-11-09 11:08 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-11-09 11:44 pm (UTC)Christ, do these blatant storms of friction interest me, historically and currently speaking. They usher in or whimper out amongst remarkable things.
no subject
Date: 2005-11-12 12:16 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-11-12 01:45 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-11-10 01:30 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-11-10 04:05 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-11-10 04:59 am (UTC)America is generally made better by immigration; however, when you have people coming into your country, wherever they are from, you expose your country to all sorts of detrimental security, health, and social problems. Therefore it is reasonable to allow for some level of screening before allowing people into any country anywhere.
Unfortunately there will always be some people who, for perfectly good reasons, attempt to gain access to the United States illegally. So long as there is a legal way for people to enter a country, there should be a reasonable amount of effort to stop people from entering it illegally.
I grew up in Southern California, during that time I got to know many immigrants from Mexico, and visited Mexico many times. One thing I can say about Mexican people is that there is nothing you can say about Mexican people. Like Americans, they are all individuals, some are criminals, some are not, some make great apple pickers, some make great lawyers, some will give you the shirt off your back, and some will stab you for your tennis shoes. You simple cannot classify the People of Mexico as all being poor, or stupid, or criminals, or as being hard working, honest, and family oriented. They are all different.
So having established that people from Mexico, and indeed all people everywhere, are individuals that must be judged on their own merits, and not on racial presumptions, then their eligibility to enter the US, or any other country should also be evaluated on an individual biases.
My solution to the problem of illegal immigration from Mexico, is three fold.
1. Secure the board. Take reasonable steps to prevent and deter people from crossing into the country illegally.
2. Help to encourage legal immigration. America has some of the least restrictive immigration policies in the world, but the system is too bureaucratic and needs to be streamlined.
3. Help develop the economy of Mexico. Mexico has everything it needs to be a superpower; its government is really the stumbling block. We should actively encourage Mexico to modernize its political system and aggressively cut out the corruption that plagues that system. (We should do this politically not militarily.)
This is a complex problem and I don’t have the time to go into the details right now, but that is the general overview of the mainstream conservative solution.
no subject
Date: 2005-11-10 05:19 am (UTC)The issues arise, however, when you start to look at the idea of "securing our borders." We can't do it. It isn't just Mexico, it's everywhere. This is a big country and the borders can't be secured and the politicians know it. And we don't really do anything to deter people from entering. All the laws REALLY do is deny people access to the political system and keep them at the mercy of employers. Then you start to think of why that is. Since the dawn of time humans have been classist and the powerful have required the weak to produce the wealth for them. It is still that way. This goes beyond racism. It is classism. It is the rich and the merchant classes still needing slaves and serfs, and simply finding a different way to get them.
Let me ask you something. What makes you think that being born in america gives you an automatic right to decide who is and who isn't worthy to live here? What makes you so much better than the people you'd turn away?
Fuck, need to run.
no subject
Date: 2005-11-10 03:26 pm (UTC)I’m not going to feel guilty for being born American, because neither America nor my tiny part in it was by random chance. It was in fact very carefully planned out for me by smart men who thought, hey I know; let’s make a society based of freedom and equality.
Being born in America gives me the rights of being an American, again a gift from my father. I like my country, and I understand that there are much worse places to live. I want to help the people who live in those places, but I have to be careful because if I let everyone in without question, then I run the risk of bringing in the people who made their countries shitty to begin with.
They don’t have the same rights I do, because their father didn’t give it to them, because his father never gave it to him, because his father had never even heard about rights and freedom. I am sorry that more nations don’t follow the example of America, that they still worship monarchies and other dictatorships, that they still slaughter their kinsman because they are called Tutu, or that they crush their people into poverty in the name of equality.
Really I think there should be at least four world super powers right now, but Canada decided to be socialist, Mexico decided to go with the quick buck of corruption, China thought Marxism would be worth a try, and the Nations of Africa can’t seem to stop killing each other with machetes no matter what anybody does to help them.
All of these places have everything they need except a capitalist democratic republic.
America was not an accident, it wasn’t fate, or god, or thousands of years of random history that made America, it was men who planned it. They thought it out, and came up with the best nation that has ever existed on the planet earth. A nation based on the revolutionary premise that all men where created equal, a relatively unheard of concept at the time.
So yeah, people want to come here, why wouldn’t they? I encourage them to do so, for their children, and their children’s children. We’ll give them all the freedom, to have all the opportunity they can earn, but they’ve got to go through a process first.
It really is a small price to pay for freedom if you think about it.
no subject
Date: 2005-11-10 08:06 pm (UTC)You feel that it is your birth-right to live in a country without birth-right monarchies?
no subject
Date: 2005-11-11 12:22 am (UTC)A birth right that says you are born into a society, in which you will be treated with the same rights as everyone else, is not the same thing as a birth right that says you are an unquestionable omnipotent ruler. My birth right is the birth right of every American, because the people who came before me, decided that every American should enjoy it.
But I see where you might have thought that.
I really think you on a strange tangent here; a person cannot choose where they are born. Maybe it's not fair that some people are born in Somalia and some are born in New York, but what ever gave you the idea that life was fair.
America does offer a way to share it's wealth with the people not fortunate enough to be born here. Does Britain? Well not if you’re Indian, does Germany, Well not if you’re Turkish... We are the only country on earth not specifically defined by a race, religion, or even language and where a surf can be a king, and a king a surf, based in large part on the their own effort and choices. You would think that would make people happy.
It sounds to me like your going for a nation less one world society. Not only do I fundamentally disagree with that idea, it is not the reality of the world we live in, and I think if we seriously want to tackle real world problems, we have to work within the real world.
Reposted to fix a HUGE typo (part 1)
Date: 2005-11-11 08:13 pm (UTC)It surprises me that you would support such inequality since you clearly dislike inequality in monarchies.
As always, you and I are on opposite sides of this argument and if there is ever a revolution (and you are actually in the States) it will be a very interesting day when we meet. But lets address a few things...
You're right. I dislike nations and think they're outdated and meaningless, as are borders. At most, if we must keep nations I think they should function vaguely like the states do in the US. Transparent entities that are there just for variations in the laws and for ease of governing.
I clearly don't think that simply being born on a bit of soil a few miles north of a border rather than a few miles south should entitle you to affluence. You're right that the world isn't fair, but that isn't a reason to just accept things as they are. Slavery, segregation, genocide, nationwide genocide, and countless attrocities are also totally unfair. Should we just say "HAH! Too bad you were born there with that color skin! Now stop whining, life isn't fair..."
I find the belief that changing a political system is a fantasy and that your stance is in the "real world" very depressing, actually. I see the republicans do that a lot. I also see a strong anti-education stance in that party "Oh, once you get into the real world blah blah." It bothers me quite a bit, actually, because the people who say those things actually have an aire of arrogance about them. Like "Silly people with their doctorates thinking they can change things. Haha, don't they know that this is as good as it gets?" It's no different than the little 8 year olds in LA who flash gang signs because they figure that being part of a gang is as good as it is going to get. They don't think about the possibilities of being a lawyer, a doctor, an astronaught, or a president. Nope, selling drugs and shooting at people is about as far as their imaginations take them. It's all part of the same sickness and the primary symptom is a total loss of hope. It is why I feel pity for people like that and want to open their eyes, why I want to open YOUR eyes.
As for your theory that a king can be a serf and vice versa. Kennedy, Bush, Rockefeller... hell, all of the old money families in the South. If you think we don't have a ruling class, that we don't have royal dynasties, and that people don't get into office based on their lineage (we call it name recognition, but it is the same thing), then I'll have a lot more to explain to you than I thought I would. Dude, you're never going to be president. You didn't go to an Ivy League school and you aren't part of a known aristocratic family. Why didn't you go to an Ivy League school? Probably for the same reason a lot of people don't even bother trying, because they don't realize they can. They lack the power to dream of that goal. And those that do often get blocked by those royal families who have undeserving children (kids who are too stupid to go that high in schooling) but have a royal name and a lot of money, so they take seats from kids who are poor but are very intelligent. I know you want the US to be a meritocracy, but it isn't. It isn't even close. I've contemplated some reforms that would make it more likely to be a meritocracy, but for right now it is style very much a dynastic society. Hell, with the rise of corporations I'd argue that it is a corporatocracy (which again, makes nations meaningless)
Reposted to fix a HUGE typo (part 2)
Date: 2005-11-11 08:14 pm (UTC)Now you want to be able to have someone decide whether or not they deserve to live in the US. If that's the case, shouldn't we have someone decide whether or not current citizens should live here as well? If you really want to make the US as good as it can be, and want a group of people who decide what an "american citizen" is and isn't (and I guarantee that prejudice will play a role... it always does in these things) shouldn't the door swing both ways? I'm willing to bet you'd say no, and rightly so, but logically based on your arguments it should.
I find it very curious that you hate the idea of someone being born into power (and it can be argued that being born american essentially makes you a monarch to the rest of the world)... that you feel that being born American is your birth-right and that you deserve this life. And at the same time, by the way you described Africa and Mexico, you seem to think that the people suffering in other countries have brought it upon themselves. Reread the way you wrote it, Chris, you essentially blame the entire population of the rest of the world for its lot in life and give yourself a hearty pat on the back for yours.
Outside of graduating high school, marrying Fumie, and leaving the US... what have you done to make the US as great as you seem to think it is? Surely you must have done something pretty amazing, since you are able to take such a condescending tone when referring to the failings of the rest of the world.
Personally, if I had my way I'd axe all nations, at most giving them state-like power. I'd take the funding that we have spent on national defense, which we wouldn't need, and create a functioning police force for the entire world and use the excess for education. Then I'd institute a law that would make it only legal to pass down your weath to the next generation. So if your dad is rich, you get the money when he dies. But your son doesn't. There is a mark on your record that says how much you inherited, so you need to either spend that money or invest it and make more. The money you inherited goes to the state, and the excess can be passed down. Right now we have billions just being held as expensive cushion stuffing by a small percentage of the population and it encourages this dynastic bullshit that plagues the world. Then you take that money and you, that's right, dump it into education. We should live in a world that isn't a giant market place, rather it is a giant school. A child in the mountains of Peru should have the same chance at being a lawyer or a doctor that a Rockefeller has. And the more educated people become, it has been shown that the less likely they are to commit crime and do all other manner of horrible things. Why? Because with education comes hope for a better future.
You should try it, Chris. Dream a little. Imagine a better future rather than doing what the ruling class want you to do, which is saying "Enh, live in the real world hippy." You're just lining their pockets and acting as their work-horse.
It would also fix a major problem, which is that those who create the wealth of the world are never the ones to share in it. But that is a conversation for another time.
Re: Reposted to fix a HUGE typo (part 2)
Date: 2005-11-16 02:22 am (UTC)I don’t expect us to agree on this, because I recognize that we are coming at the issue with total different philosophies, and that to agree we would basiclly have argue down to our most basic presumptions.
What I really hoped to convince you of, is that a person wanting a reasonably secure boarder does not by default make them a racists.
The way I see it, a person uses such rhetoric when they are more interested in wining the argument, or possibly stopping the argument, than they are in actually solving the problem.
I am not a racist, I don’t have a racists past, and I will not let anyone tell me I should feel guilty, about, or worse pay restitution for, the suffering of others which I have not caused.
I am not my brothers keeper.
Re: Reposted to fix a HUGE typo (part 2)
Date: 2005-11-16 04:04 am (UTC)Re: Reposted to fix a HUGE typo (part 2)
Date: 2005-11-16 03:34 am (UTC)I hate to bring it up, it’s not something I like to brag about but there was the three years volunteering with FEMA and the Red Cross I did.
Mostly disaster relief stuff with some search and rescue and a few recovery efforts.
Is that good enough for you?
Re: Reposted to fix a HUGE typo (part 2)
Date: 2005-11-16 04:03 am (UTC)Well, if there was a bar that had to be met in order to live in this country, I'd say you probably met it. I'm proud of you, dude. I wasn't saying you're worthless, btw. I was just trying to point out that most people who congratulate themselves for living in the US have done nothing to deserve it. It was a bad gamble to guess that you hadn't done anything selfless in the name of helping the US. I've always said you're a good person who is just ideologically oppositional from me (and has a net-tone that often gets my hackles up). I'm glad to see I've been right about you. Hell, my opinion of you goes ever higher, despite our political arguments.
no subject
Date: 2005-11-10 04:06 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-11-10 04:06 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-11-10 04:10 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-11-10 04:12 am (UTC)OMG illegal immigrants gonna steal all our jobs ... like picking fruit ...
Date: 2005-11-10 08:14 am (UTC)Its really frustrating to see lots of good people jump through all the paperwork and legal hoops, and still get fucked when their visa expires. The attitude against illegal immigrants is pretty insane; they should be able to get help with becoming a citizen, not just kicked out ASAP if they cant provide a green card.
I agree with deporting someone if they break laws or downright refuse to go through the citizenship process. INS agents should be like unemployment workers - signing people up for english classes, not breaking down doorways.